We’re seeing this problem happen a lot in our metropolitan areas. You know that’s where the jobs are. That’s where college grads tend to go and they are some of the most highest cost of living areas in the country. You want a good salary you want to be able to pay off your college debt. You want a job. You want a career. You know it seems like you have to bite the bullet and live in areas that have high costs of living and high rents.
Patrick Antrim: [00:00:26] That’s Joshua Shokoor. He’s an affordable housing advocate dedicated to elevating organizational efficiency and promoting effective communication to strengthen public and private relationships. He’s devoted the last two years to furthering an understanding of how communities in the 21st century organize themselves and how residents interact with the institutions they construct. Since the fall of 2017 Joshua has worked full time as a data and communications analyst at the NHP Foundation. In late 2018, Joshua will graduate from George Mason University with a master’s degree in urban policy and development concentrating on the role Science and Technology will play in the future design and social function of our cities.
Patrick Antrim: [00:02:20] So housing intersects with every aspect of our live. Our social lives, our communities. And for the last two years or maybe even perhaps more I know you’ve done some deep research on this but you’ve devoted a lot of time in your own personal resources and professional to understand how communities organize themselves and how residents interact with the institutions that they construct. Can you tell us a little bit more about this?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:02:50] So my main thing is looking at you know local governments municipalities and how people inhabit those areas and how their relationships are with you know the different levels of government whether it goes to county state and federal. But yeah I mean mainly how people set up their neighborhoods. I grew up in a very nice neighborhood. City of Falls Church it’s actually ranked as the number one household median income in this country. And also it’s just rated the healthiest and it’s a strange case because it’s a 2.2 square mile city. You can look at it now and you can say it’s growing. How did it get to where it is? And you know there was a lot of community involvement, resident involvement and engagement. You know so many meetings there’s so many people attending but you can if you look at the history of it. It got its independence and its own municipality that 2.2 square miles based on redlining. So you know we can look at the history and how things were organized whether through know homeowner’s association or local governments to where they are now and it’s just trying to get that full scope to understand how city got to where it is and where it’s going. And why you know certain areas are so different socioeconomically wise diversity was than others.
Patrick Antrim: [00:04:27] In order to have an all encompassing program to develop even affordable housing in a community I mean you’ve have bankers involved, you’ve got builders, you have private public partnerships, cities, state issues, local issues, attorneys, accountants, and all these types of programs that come into play. Do we need more expertise in affordable housing or are we just not collecting the right data?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:04:57] So when it comes to housing specifically I would say that it’s not necessarily all these expertise and these individuals with certain titles playing their roles and you know creating affordable housing more so it’s the data sharing between developers and local governments and developers at one another. Academics. Medical facilities different hospitals. The these industries all intersect with one another and have to sort of work together to see what local areas need in comparison to others but to create more affordable housing. The problem that we’re having there is you know you could say mainly for federal government certain programs. You know we have not been funding affordable housing like we used to. Definitely creating less affordable housing than we used to. And again that could be a number of reasons but it would mean that on the road. The subsidies the incentives provided by the federal government and local governments going back to what I was discussing earlier about you know my area where I grew up in. You can see those other areas too. Alexandria City, they’re looking at a crisis where all their affordable housing their covenants are running out. So the years that they were designed like OK this is going to be affordable housing for 20 years for 30 years. All their covenants are running out. So what they’re doing now is they’re having to be innovative and create a meals tax and they created a you know very small meals tax in order to preserve the affordable housing. That was about to run out. So it’s it’s a lot of ingenuity because to create a lot of affordable housing the past but we’re seeing a lot of those now being able to be preserved. And also the new construction is a problem. Whether it’s you know construction prices but you know we’re seeing high or stagnant construction prices then we have to figure out another way to offset those costs. And that comes for tax abatements through through local government or different subsidies like LIHTC through the federal government.
Patrick Antrim: [00:07:23] Should we be thinking differently about affordable housing? I know that you mentioned new development. I think we brought on a lot of supply. Probably one of the peak levels even last year and so most of those developments are because of like you said those construction costs and those performers have to support higher rents. And so but there’s still a demand for affordable housing in these communities. And so what should we be doing to think differently about this?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:07:57] There’s going to continue to be a demand for affordable housing. If we just look at our seniors you know if we want to say one in four Americans require affordable housing you know 10,000 seniors hit retirement age every day and they’re going to be the most hardest hit by this affordable housing crisis. Most of them relies solely on SSI for their income. So it’s understanding how big the problem is. Which I don’t think we always do. We kind of you know isolate certain areas you know or you know again we start to think about public housing and relate that to affordable housing. But I think we should talk about and look at you know where it’s going to be in the future and then try to work together whether it’s you know private industries working with one another and taking government out of it or at least the federal government or having the federal government more involved or having different local governments work together municipalities to understand that you know this is getting externalities come from this. And so it for one municipality to another and that all of these municipalities are facing this problem.
Joshua Shokoor: [00:09:17] I would also like to say that you know going back to the public housing that you know this huge problem that we’re seeing here are slowly being corrected. That was creating affordable housing and low opportunity areas. So consolidating low income people in low income, low opportunity areas. Meaning we all know that an area code. And I think it’s pretty given fact that an area code can often determine the opportunities you have in life. I mean zip code. And so, if you know if we create more affordable housing opportunity areas I think we’re going to get of this stereotype of what we how we see affordable housing. It’s going to be more palatable for different residents and localities especially when we have NIMBY’s you know those people who were like (not in my backyard). But if we look for housing notes, 83 percent of affordable housing is created in those low opportunity areas. So if we can start trying to build affordable housing in high opportunity areas I think that will also help fix this problem.
Patrick Antrim: [00:10:30] Talk to me about your low opportunity areas and these high opportunity areas. Are you looking at this when you said public housing is that sort of the market rate multifamily development where you’ve got your submarkets of class A or you have your submarkets suburban and urban areas but also different A,B,C classes that are un-unrestricted and rent growth is climbing based off of demographics and yields in those marketplaces?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:11:02] We’re talking about public housing, I think most for the layman is thinking Section 8 and thinking problems with Section 8. And they know what they see either in their neighborhoods or what they’ve heard from other people what they see in the media or they have seen on TV they always just think that poor areas with public housing has high crime and they don’t want that. And so that is what they’ve associated affordable housing.
Patrick Antrim: [00:11:35] So the general public’s view on this affordable housing story. Can we change that story? Number two, tell me more specifically about the differences between these areas what drives investments in those areas the low opportunities is it just in place scenarios in those communities?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:11:57] We can go back to housing itself is a huge determinant. So you know just having housing is a big deal but low opportunity. You know we usually are going to associate that with you know not that great of education. High crime, not great job opportunities, difficult access to grocery stores, medical clinics, as we would say food deserts. I mean now we’re starting to see it as medical deserts. So if we start moving away from that and putting creating more affordable housing areas that have great good education low crime quality job opportunities access to grocery stores and medical clinics then we will see a change in perception. But I think first you know when it comes to affordable housing you know it’s going to have to come. Either we’re going to work through a public policy landscape and through that we’re going to have to educate constituents on what a formal housing means and why it should relate to them. Or you know we’re going to have to take another route and it’s going to have to be a lot of the private sector leading the way. And that’s again where we went away from what was a good thing of moving away from strictly problem housing publicly funded developments. Now we’ve got private organizations and they’re just like my organization NHP Foundation who are preserving or creating new construction for housing with different mechanisms and an ability then you know the public sector really has. And again we’re seeing that right now different affordable housing organizations and us the NHP Foundation are we’re looking at working with hospitals to you know create affordable housing or provide housing and low income for individuals who need it most. Each hospital will see that either homeless or those people who are not in stable housing – they are the highest users of hospital care and that a prescription to prevent that is just stable housing. That’s where we’re seeing the medical industry is finding incentives to work with affordable housing industry currently.
Patrick Antrim: [00:14:26] You mentioned schools and hospitals in these city platforms and even in these low level opportunities. Is this where your conversation about data. We’re all sharing that data. You’re providing better education, better informed decisions around growth in these areas. Are the cities at the core of all of this?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:14:49] I think that they have the best assets to be able to collect that data. Whether it’s human services, certain housing authorities, even law enforcement. Affordable housing developers or hospitals to be able to collect that data, you’re going to have an opportunity to see where they are currently and how well you can produce certain numbers. If local governments are financially burdened because of you know high crime or in-stable housing and homelessness. You can see those numbers currently as they are. And what happens to those numbers once an affordable housing development comes in. Especially if they work hand in hand with say a hospital. But everyone sharing that data and then be able to evaluate over time over a period of three to four years to see what occurs. This could definitely change the conversation when it comes to affordable housing showing that it could be the prescription to a lot of ills.
Patrick Antrim: [00:16:08] Are there any other reference points to see how this has played out already? I mean either in education or anybody testing out these models? You mentioned the Falls Church Community being the ideal or in the scenario where it’s ideal in terms of an attractive quality of life.
Joshua Shokoor: [00:16:28] The city I’m from is not creating a lot of affordable housing. So I’m part of their affordable housing policy Workgroup. We’re trying to change the language we’ve been educating in the local newspaper our wrote an article discussing over the last 10 years of what housing looked like and how there’s not not been any affordable housing and changing the language from affordable housing to affordable living and it’s actually starting to move the needle when it comes to residents on board and the City Council. So yeah right now currently my company is the only company really you know there’s only two affordable housing areas one for seniors which you know NHP Foundation runs and then another one but to look at maybe workforce or another way to create affordable housing in that area is going to be difficult but we’re trying.
Patrick Antrim: [00:17:32] Let’s go back into a little bit more about NHP Foundation and what you guys do because you’re aligned as developers too right? But you’re also carrying this message forward. Tell me a little bit about the mission there and what you guys are really trying to accomplish?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:17:46] So I would say that we’re a not for profit organization with a mission to preserve and increase service enriched affordable housing for low income individuals, families and seniors. And I think the key word is that there are two words or service enriched. We don’t just build and we don’t just preserve our development or project and walk away and just you know asset manage the assets. We have resident service coordinators on the ground at pretty much every one of our properties. And what these individuals do they can provide financial literacy, employment assistance, afterschool programs, so anything to help create a more stable and a higher opportunity environment for these individuals who might not actually live while the community might actually be placed in a high opportunity area. So again we can it going back to that sharing data. You know if we work with our resident service coordinators to have a better understanding with local government who are the people we are serving and I think we can do a lot better work. And I think that is the message I’m trying to come when it comes to data. We have to have a lie and indicators of outcomes and the benefits of all that has to be sort of universal between all different sectors of branches.
Patrick Antrim: [00:19:18] I think of the word appreciation both in the economics of value. I mean a property appreciating and then sort of that gratitude sense like “Hey I appreciate you.” I mean you’re increasing in value to me. I’m thankful. I’m appreciating and so is this affordable housing goes beyond just keeping rents at a price point. It’s really about taking that community in and working together with others in that community to essentially lift up in other ways you’re talking about financial literacy and these other opportunities. I mean is this the view public house home affordable housing?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:20:01] No. You know I could tell people when I first started working for NHP Foundation and I’ll tell you that that was that surprised me. I didn’t know about the resident service coordinators and the service or housing. And so that you know maybe stepped back and made me like an awe. I was really excited to be a part of this organization and I think telling certain friends or you know past colleagues about this day you know didn’t really understand it didn’t know that that’s what came with affordable housing a lot of times in this 21st century. But that’s something that we do and again at pretty much every single one of our properties and you know we keep our own data sets on them or the people we serve you know whether it’s the amount of people we serve how much money saved. Who might have got a job, who was able to save up and buy a home. So we’re able to collect our own data and see how we are truly affecting the community that we’re serving.
Patrick Antrim: [00:21:05] Going back to my earlier thoughts on how do you reference this are connect it. Are there other industries or other scenarios that are bumping up into this challenge. Think about education with charter schools, and public education, and now a lot of resources going into education. A lot of challenges. Technology is playing a part. You’ve got companies like Google and other companies trying to look forward into the future of our future or our next generation. So is there anything that we can reference in terms of similar scenarios that can play a part of that dataset?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:21:46] Well if you want to talk education for one. Yeah. I think when we look at education problems which in those areas where charter schools are taking hold them you know these are coming. These are people who are you know being having to go out of their own like zip code to go to another school because their education is not that great where they’re at. And at the same point if, you want to fight diversity in schools you want to create more diversity whether it’s racial or socio economic, we have to have diverse housing. And again I would go back to my point earlier about the city I grew up in and how that was created by redlining. And again I took an education policy class not too long ago and one of the big things is creating diversity is we’re seeing more segregation happening in schools. Whether again it’s racial or socioeconomic that you know you have to have diverse housing opportunities for individuals to really provide and educate full scope education for all the people you’re trying to serve.
Patrick Antrim: [00:23:12] That’s powerful. I look at the growth even in our economy it seems as though it most of the economic growth favors higher income. And you know you can look at that and a lot of different ways but you’re seeing just the demand overall for housing and in communities is so strong with not a lifestyle choice but these these social and local impacts to how people decide where to live and where you’re talking about going to different areas of the community just for education. It’s interesting. How how do we actually communicate to these policymakers. What role would someone in the industry take to really move forward with this? I mean your company is you know dedicated to this challenge but what is somebody that’s it’s part of their program…We’re trying to solve these things as an industry. But what would what do you suggest the next steps?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:24:21] I think one thing policymakers want to see. You can come with the saddest story and they’ll listen but they won’t take action. Because they want to see data of how things are going to be improved. And they also want to see dollars and cents. I want to know this is a good investment for our government. Whether it’s local, state, or federal. And so again I think we have to go back to what I’m saying is housing first policy as a you know as a short social determinant for the rest of certain issues that may occur or are problems that we know people face in society. And if you’re able to provide housing then again as I just discussed about hospitals they save money. HHS housing human services are going to save money. You’re going to have less crime. And so if you can show that money’s being saved by these local governments because we are able to provide housing and that the overall burden on society is now being lessened. Especially with services enriched we’re talking about employment assistance that could be potentially that you have less people on Medicaid. There’s a lot of different things that go into that. But if we can actually have full on studies that show that determine how much money is being saved by local and federal governments through creating more housing then that’s going to help push the policymakers in the direction of funding more. I mean as we are seeing there’s been massive cuts to HUD through this administration. But yeah that’s that’s probably what I lean towards. First is creating that study to show the dollars and cents that are being saved through investment of government but also education. As I said before, you know you have to educate the constituents and then those constituents have to make those phone calls and you know really push the representatives to address this issue and this issue is not just affecting one generation or one group of people. As I said, it’s affecting seniors. It’s going to it’s going to affect them greatly and it’s affecting my generation. Millennials are very cost burdened when it comes to rents. We’re paying over 30 percent of our income for housing every month. But even you know many people my age are paying over 50 percent of their income. So not only you know through stagnant wages and the economy they’re able to save money and they probably also have college debt. So you know they’re living month to month paycheck to paycheck. Are they ever going to be able to purchase a home? Get that American dream. It’s going to be difficult if they are so cost burden every month. I think it’s going to be education of our constituents and them calling our policy makers and then also being able to produce good studies that show the dollars and cents that local, federal, and state governments save through funding housing.
Patrick Antrim: [00:27:47] Obviously this is a long term strategy. Do you see companies innovating this process? I would just think if you’re trying to get that data the data helps you educate those those policymakers. And so where do you get the data? Who’s measuring the data right now? I mean you mentioned you guys are doing some stuff but who’s really measuring anything right now?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:28:09] I think that goes with the siloization of data where people are not unwilling to share their data or they’re measuring different things. And so the data isn’t really aligned nationally even statewide. But this will be going through various affordable housing industries working together with safe think tank organization to create a study, this research that really shows the savings over time. And I think that’s probably where we’re going gonna be going here soon because of the lack of funding that we’re receiving to create affordable housing through the various levels of government. You know even the normal fundraising through philanthropy we’re seeing a reduction in that across all nonprofits because of donor advised funds that have begun became so popular. Or you know the corporate tax cut from 35 percent to 21 percent with no sunset. It lowers the tax credits that developers rely on through low income housing tax credit.
Patrick Antrim: [00:29:29] Interesting. And you mentioned earlier about looking at millennials paying as much as 30 percent and probably as much as 50 percent on housing. And it obviously depends on where they are. Do you see this as an issue in certain areas of certain segments of the country or the industry or do you see this as not which I mean you can’t build a “B” property today. Right? And the demand for that housing is is as high as it’s ever been and what you’re talking about it’s going to continue with that story of owning a home. Is that happening higher debt education costs or just meeting your own needs each month. I mean saving up for that down payment, plus interest rates rising, that cost growing over time. But it also looks like the units that we’re building were not really building affordable units. They are north of 14, 1,500 dollars a month to to make these proformas work. It just it’s interesting. what do you see? Is this an issue with all companies or just affordable housing operators? I mean obviously this is a national issue but I mean who can really make the biggest impact and in what markets do you think? Is there some that are leading others?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:31:00] I would say that what we’re seeing more so especially to local governments is the building of the new developments that are mixed use. So retail at the bottom, market rate housing at the top with certain set percentage “set asides” affordable with like a 20 year covenant. And so that’s what we’re seeing pretty much the new creation of affordable housing. That’s being that’s happening throughout the country. Set asides that have covenants for about 20 30 years.
Patrick Antrim: [00:31:38] Some of those are maturing you’re saying that too. And at the same time it also gets us into those high opportunity areas right? That’s that’s a good trend?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:31:50] So again I keep on taking it back to the local government from Fall Church. I’m a part of the affordable housing policy work group and you know right now are our suggestion for every new development is 6 percent set aside at about I think 60 percent of AMI (Area Medium Income). AMI in our area is about a $115,000 household area median income. So I would say that you know if we you know we’ve been telling them we told them we want eight to 10 percent with the covenants to be in perpetuity. So the life of the building so that these will never disappear. They will remain affordable. And we will get a higher percentage. So that’s our suggestion of a new development in the future. We’re seeing that happen in other localities but again it’s not a permanent fix and it’s you know it’s a very small amount of housing for each new development is definitely not going to equal to the amount of housing that’s needed. Low income housing that’s needed for individuals. But I think the main we’re seeing this problem happen a lot in our metropolitan areas. You know that’s where the jobs are. That’s where college grads tend to go where the jobs are and they are some of the most you know highest cost of living areas in the country. But you know if you want to you want a good salary you want to be able to pay off your college debt. You want a job you want you know a career. You know it seems like you have to bite the bullet a lot of these times and you know live in areas that have high cost of living and high rents. So that’s I think the trend as we’re seeing it currently. We’ve also seen some things that you know people are moving to areas where housing is yet more affordable. I think Atlanta is one of those areas. But you know it’s growing but I think it’s mainly happening in those metropolitan areas right now.
Patrick Antrim: [00:33:56] Right. And you mention biting the bullet for chasing that opportunity that you’re choosing a career, building career for yourself, and those rents over time or increasing far faster than the wages are correct?
Patrick Antrim: [00:34:16] Tell me more about the Affordable Housing Workgroup. I mean is this something that you hold together or you joined up or. Tell me is that a solution that leaders can get involved in?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:34:29] No I think that’s you know it’s a form of a housing policy workgroups every five years we have to update and rewrite the affordable housing policy in our city. I mean I think that goes back to you know high city engagement with the residents living there. Again that’s something that we think every local government should take away is that they should know incentivize and motivate people to be more involved in the city, and the government how things are developed and organized. I was asked to join. And I’m I’m representing my organization. Being a young millennial who works for a nonprofit you know have my say in the way my city designs affordable housing in the future. So that’s how I got involved.
Patrick Antrim: [00:35:22] It sounds forward thinking. I don’t know if there’s a leader out there that wants to make impact and create a difference with what they do. I mean you know their expertise in this whole process can be leveraged. Just have to know where to connect and who can be the leader in that. And so much of the developers and the multifamily operators I mean I think are trying to you know constantly maintain client relationships increase results for owners and many of those strategies come from growing rents. Increasing revenues and keeping investors happy through better yields and management accounts through keeping more of the money that’s being earned. And so this conversation ultimately though the story of the city improves. All real estate if we can get all these people together.
Patrick Antrim: [00:36:27] Talk to me about innovation. Is there anybody that you know or you see or even in technology that’s pointed in the direction of investment towards affordable housing. There’s been a lot of new innovations around innovating the leasing experience or smart home technology these types of things but are there things that you see technology playing a part in creating either that data or is there a story there?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:36:59] I would say a policy point I would say innovation could be like zoning. Everything that we should work on our zoning especially in cities technology. And there’s a lot of interesting things going on with technology and how they’ll sell them more mold together with the future development of our cities. If you look at 3D printing and the potential for lower construction costs by being able to 3D print certain pieces of construction at a relatively cheap a rate. I think people are becoming more ingenuitive with constructing a home whether you went from those the cargo crates other things of that nature. I think that you know one thing that people are missing out realizing is you know autonomous vehicles and how these vehicles are really going to change landscape for our cities. Our cities are designed for cars to drive around them. Strip malls are designed for cars to drive and parking in them. Huge parking lots spaces you know underground garages were all designed for cars to get around. But you know as you know autonomous vehicles start to get rolled out and the next you know 20 years or so we could start seeing no need for parking lots anymore. So with that being said, you’re also having a lot more land available to create housing. So I think that technology is going to work its way we’re probably going to be a much more dense cities but it’s going to also allow for the creation of more housing. If it’s done correctly. So we have to have policy makers in place who are thinking that forward and understanding you know what might be coming around the bend that you know we need to keep our eye on with any new development that we do.
Patrick Antrim: [00:39:11] That’s great. I know the autonomous vehicle conversation we explored last year at our summit and we’ll be watching that closely because when we look at the city’s real estate 30% of it is the roads and the cars and all that parking and and you know if you look at just even the restrictions on space to have turnarounds and things like that is all driven off of that the data around what’s required for fire truck to come in and out and all those types of things and so that’s pretty facinating. And developers, the major cost is that parking and the impact to that on construction in the layout of all the buildings. And if you think about the automotive industry even the vehicle itself. Just rethink the affordable housing discussion in new ways. Get the conversation going so we can think differently about it to tell a better story. Maybe bring some innovations, some technology into it to where it can really truly facilitate conversations with others. Maybe the data is the one point that brings it together. And almost like what Google did where they went out and mapped the streets and it allowed so many other things to happen because of that data. And once you had that data then you could do other things and solve some other bigger challenges. I’m sure there’s people that have saved lives because of certain aspects of that. Faster routes to places things like that. So we just don’t have that story to tell. But when you think about the vehicle the car even as you drive home you get behind the wheel if you’re driving to work every day and you understand that that vehicle there’s probably about 3,000 people to come together to make that car. And the the amount of innovation that’s in a vehicle today versus 30 years ago is fascinating. It’s unbelievable. I got a new vehicle recently with the backup camera. It takes some adjustment to learn. You’re used to looking over your shoulder to back up. But now with the tech I don’t even look I mean I’m better off not looking back looking at the camera then actually beeps and tells me everything. But you think about the vehicle and you compare that to real estate. And you look at those cars all the cars even the carts were drive today are engineered and designed for the driver. But now with Uber and all these other things. Maybe the AC buttons and all that stuff should be in the back because it’s a passenger economy. How does that change productivity and do people need to commute into those cities and pay higher prices for things because you know jobs have adjusted? So it’s really interesting. I love the conversation I want to you know continue to advance the discussion so that’s you know we continue to deliver on all aspects of what’s required to really solve the affordable housing challenge. I don’t have any answers but hopefully those that are listening in that have innovation have investment and want to take on a challenge like that that can reach out to someone like you or you or get thought leadership around this topic and really solve. Because I think it’s going to come from innovation. It’s going to come from somebody inspired by a purpose and to take on the challenge and to get them to think totally different about it. But when you play out things like autonomous vehicles, innovation, bring in healthcare, education, developers, cities and the public together enough in one mission there are some really interesting things that can happen.
Joshua Shokoor: [00:43:14] Yes. You have to start on the ground.
Patrick Antrim: [00:43:16] Absolutely. I love what you’re doing. I’m inspired by your work. We’re coming up here to the end of our segment but I wanted to give you the opportunity to share any final thoughts with our listeners. Anything that you might have to share?
Joshua Shokoor: [00:43:31] I would just go back and understand the community you live in more. I think you should look at affordable housing that way. Understand that people who might be related to you, might be your children, might be your parents, grandparents, are burdened by these housing costs and trying to figure out how do we fix this problem together. Whether that is contacting your policymakers, educating other people on these issues, or just getting involved locally and the government level. I think that’s important and that should be the key takeaway because it’s going to be a problem that we are all currently facing and are going to continue to have to face in this country.
Patrick Antrim: [00:44:20] Wonderful thoughts Joshua thank you for sharing the time and we appreciate you coming on the show.
Joshua Shokoor: [00:44:24] Thank you.
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